Ranjit Singh Sra - Today's encounter, sorry for promt, if someone can see exhaust fan's gusts then its ok. a spider's swings in the bathroom's corner -- first of Sawan

https://www.facebook.com/groups/INhaiku/permalink/724333024295756/

Ranjit Singh Sra

July 16 at 5:02am

Today's encounter, sorry for promt, if someone can see exhaust fan's gusts then its ok.
a spider's swings
in the bathroom's corner --
first of Sawan

LikeLike ·

• 
  

Seen by 36

Akila Gopalakrishnan, Amarjit Sathi Tiwana, Kala Ramesh and 5 others like this.

• 

Jayashree Maniyil sorry, I am a little talkative today! I don't see the exhaust fan in the verse unfortunately, if you had not mentioned it before.

July 16 at 5:35am · Like · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra Its ok, jayashree, not necessary !

July 16 at 5:37am · Like · 1

• 

Jayashree Maniyil ah ok! should it be 'a spider swings' on L1 ?? I will now ask you a very dumb question then - what is the connection between Sawan and a spider swinging in the bathroom??

July 16 at 5:42am · Like · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra I always try to avoid verbs.
When i noticed this today, at once came in my mind 'sawan ke jhoole' enjoyed by Indian girls in this month.

July 16 at 5:49am · Like · 2

• 

Jayashree Maniyil ... Thank you! I like this now, very much! It makes me smile too . Thanks for explaining Ranjit - (you ok, if we call you by this name?)

July 16 at 5:51am · Like · 2

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra Thanks,Jayashree. Why not ok and its tradition of this group.

July 16 at 5:56am · Like · 2

• 

Paresh Tiwari sawan me jhoole...very Indian perspective but really like it

July 16 at 7:35am · Like · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra Thank you, Paresh.!!

July 16 at 11:00am · Like · 1

• 

Anitha Varma Shouldn't it be "a spider's swing" rather than "a spider's swings"?

July 16 at 12:33pm · Edited · Like · 1

• 

Kala Ramesh I think Anitha has a point.

a spider swings
in the bathroom corner

or
a spider's swing

July 16 at 5:34pm · Edited · Like · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill .
a spider swings
in the bathroom corner -
arrival of Sawan

but he'll discard it as blasphemy for he's a stanch follower of Gurga's observation that "Haiku is the 'poetry of nouns' ".
Robert in his note on Kigo writes:

We don't need to be a member of any religion or sect, nor do we need to be Japanese to acknowledge and see the value of the kigo in haiku. It is the essence of a haiku, the tool most adept at giving a voice to the unsaid. Kigo embodies haiku as it is its creative force (zoka). Nature, as in the artistisic mind, gives a voice to the unsaid, paints a continuum that's objective, and is event biased versus object biased. A true haiku is not focused on an object. Objects are impermanent and external. The process is more important than the object: the unseen and unheard, the internal, when melded to the external, bring the poet to the floating world where intuition and perception are teachers.

July 16 at 6:42pm · Like · 2

• 

Jayashree Maniyil i did wonder because when I asked the same about if L1 should be 'a spider swings', the reply being 'I try to avoid verbs' took me by surprise. i still read the verse as it worked for me. but was mulling over not using verbs. this intrigues me.

July 16 at 6:51pm · Unlike · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill Jayashree, "fanaticism" is not found only among religious people it is prevalent everywhere. but in literature the most fanatic people are found in the Haiku-World.

July 16 at 6:54pm · Like · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill Robert quotes:

The Chinese painter, Zhu Yunming (1460-1526), wrote:

"Everything in the universe has some kind of life and that the mystery of creation, changing and unsettled, cannot be described in forms."

July 16 at 6:56pm · Like · 1

• 

Jayashree Maniyil not sure where i will land one day in my haiku journey. everything sounds a reasonable argument to me. so in that respect i admire a 'fanatic' too, for holding his or her own belief. But seriously, there is so much out there to read and understand. is one lifetime enough!

July 16 at 7:07pm · Unlike · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill one moment is enough!
Truth is infinite and none can grasp it in its entirety but only in a small ( negligible ) fraction, outwardly. the way, it seems to me, can be the realization of being one with it. and there comes my reason for repulsion towards fanaticism, rest aside the admiration or respect. for, a fanatic declares that the facet of Truth revealed to him is the whole truth. not just the Truth but there's nothing in world that's so plain, haiku included. even grammatically i've heard long discussions on Doordarshan over such issues, where one scholar will be saying about a certain word to be a noun and other as a verb. isaid grammatically, not philosophically. poetry is a totally different thing, the theories are being continuously revised.
an anti-personification dude can say, about the poem at hand, that it should be sway/swaying not swing/swinging.
the first and foremost thing is the poetic quality of a creation, rules should be secondary, and should be avoided if they are eclipsing the beauty, that's the poetic essence. our creations are increasingly becoming an empirical descriptions and they lack the poetic element. it's secondary whether they are "description" of an "event" or "object". they should be poetical expressions following the rules that force the soul of a genre.

July 16 at 8:35pm · Edited · Like

• 

Jayashree Maniyil Amen to that! It's good to listen to you . appreciate your patience here with me

July 16 at 8:42pm · Like

• 

Dalvir Gill whence i heard, "Teacher appears when the student is ready", it changed everything. it's true about me, ( and the reason behind my love for Haiku ) that more than books, teachers and such, Nature taught me.

http://dalvirgill.wordpress.com/.../lessons-are-learned.../

Lessons are learned, can never be taught.

dalvirgill.wordpress.com

Lessons are learned, can never be taught. Dalvir Gill Lessons are learned, can n... See More

July 16 at 8:47pm · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

• 

Jayashree Maniyil How wonderful! Aren't we all on this journey for the same - to learn from what is around us. It is easy to draw inspiration from what is around us, but difficult to learn. Or rather, more difficult to follow . Sorry Ranjit for invading your post, and thanks for allowing too!

July 16 at 11:07pm · Unlike · 2

• 

Dalvir Gill you said it all. _/||\_

July 16 at 11:16pm · Like · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra thanks Anitha, good suggestion, swing is more near to Sawan, but problem is that i perceived swings of spider and conveyed it to reader without turning cobweb into swing.
Thanks Kala for your kind attention !!

July 16 at 11:41pm · Like · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra Gill sahab, pardon me!! Why are you targeting and bothering me?
To use or not use verb is one's personal choice, Basho mostly used it, Issa not.
I am not following Lee Gurga as your following Robert D Wilson. I am following haiku and anyone having haiku knowledge is medium for me to understand haiku.Its true that Lee Gurga's book helped me to understand basics oh haiku coz it was my first book after being a fresh on punjabi haiku and it was not Lee to say that haiku is poetry of nouns but Basho used to say this.
In my above ku my perception is swings of spider, if i say spider swings it can mean that spider is swinging willingly or by effort, which is not true.
For me haiku is not 'mattha pacchi', its is simply a record of ah moment by using little knowledge of haiku basics.
So please no further comments on my any post in any group. You can share your knowledge by separate posts by not mentioning or hinting my name.
Thank you !!

July 17 at 12:02am · Like · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill in the comment above you have asked me a question and forbidden to comment/answer. Swinging is done willingly - yes, but not swaying.
Basho ( 1644 – 1694 ) can't say anything on Haiku because the word (/genre ) Haiku was coined by Shiki ( 1867 – 1902 ).

Gurga writes, “Haiku is a poetry of nouns.” (Page 79), in fact in his
“Haiku: A Poet’s Guide” he devotes an entire section called “Haiku Grammar” (see pages 79 – 83).

Here's the reference that Lee Gurga did propounded this idea. Can you provide me the reference where did Basho say this about haiku or any poetic form?

I'm not targeting you Sir, i only wanted to discuss it earnestly in the PunjabiHaiku, ( where you are one of the admins and you advise members to not to you verbs and suggest them an alternative version so that the verb is changed to a noun, so it's not just a matter of personal choice near you, as you claimed in your comment.) but you ignored it but half an hour later, ( after i tagged you in Madam Arvinder's post of an interview with Madam Deodhar to discuss her haiku shared in the interview - within that group. ) when you posted your poem in this group you didn't forget to mention: July 11 at 10:00am (all times EST)
#gem#
An oldie, coz i only record genuine perceptions

i didn't respond. but Paresh Tiwari did ( July 12 at 7:02am ), i waited for you to respond but when you didn't, only then, i voted for Paresh, July 14 at 11:50pm.

here again, on this post you endorsed the same idea, that is, "personal experience". 19 hours ago ( present time. 12:44 AM EST ).

But you see how things work - adding a note to your post, evokes discussion.

ok, i'll stay clear of your way. I've provided you the reference and if you still have that book you can cross-check it.
But can you do me, and yourself, a favour! Where/When did Basho say what you claim he did?

July 17 at 12:51am · Edited · Like

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra please pardon me, i know nothing about haiku !!

July 17 at 12:54am · Like

• 

Dalvir Gill BlessedBe!

July 17 at 12:55am · Like

• 

Kala Ramesh Ranjit and Dalvir, if you have any strong views to be discussed, please do so as privately. nobody'd stopping you :))
. . . .but do not pull your heated arguments [which sounds quite strong] into IN haiku forum [threads].
Hope you see my take.

IN haiku spirit of friendship
_kala

July 17 at 1:09am · Unlike · 1

• 

Ranjit Singh Sra Basho's hokku have been called a "poetry of nouns"
because of its tendency to rely primarily on image rather than statement.
~Barnhill
----------------------

A haiku avoids adverbs and adjectives to the greatest possible extent. Even verbs, the backbone of language, are elimiated where they can be understood. Many haiku masterpieces have not a single verb, adverb, or adjective (note: this line of thinking clearly indicates that haiku is a "poetry of nouns")
~ Chen-ou Liu

July 17 at 7:35am · Edited · Like

• 

Dalvir Gill I thought it was over. Am I allowed to respond, Kala Ramesh? i'll wait for your verdict. and clarify about Barnhill ( I respect him a lot, just like Robert but don't follow him/them. ), but Sra Bhaji the second link you posted is to refute this "line of thinking," that is, he doesn't believe it. check his blog post: ( without naming, he cited from "Snow Falling from a Bamboo Leaf: The Art of Haiku by Hiag Akmakjian; and destroyed this thinking that "Haiku is a poetry of Nouns )

http://neverendingstoryhaikutanka.blogspot.ca/.../poetic...

NeverEnding Story: Poetic Musings: Matsushima Haiku Attributed to Basho

neverendingstoryhaikutanka.blogspot.com

Below is excerpted from Basho's remark on cutting: "First, the cutting word is inserted in order to cut the verse.

July 17 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like · Remove Preview

• 

Kala Ramesh Of course, if we can all exchange views in a friendly manner - there's nothing to stop you from doing it

July 17 at 7:27pm · Unlike · 1

• 

Dalvir Gill there's not much to say. A Discussion/Debate is worthwhile only when both parties claim they don't know the Truth but through sharing try to understand, try to go a step further; closer to the Truth.
even in this thread, i didn't try to answer,"I am not following Lee Gurga as you're following Robert D Wilson." but only

"it was not Lee to say that haiku is poetry of nouns but Basho used to say this." ( both Sra BhaJi's statements. )

So I presented the reference ( coincidentally it was the same book
Sra Sahib said initiated him into Haiku. ) where Lee Gurga says this.
and asked the reference for
"Where Basho indicates such a thing?" ( still waiting for the answer/reference.

i don't have even the faintest idea how Japanese Grammar works. ( Only thing i know is that, like most Indian languages, they don't have Articles, an indication that Grammar for different languages work differently ).

A kigo is not an object but a process - a continuity. It’s not an object ( koto ) maybe a word denoting Noun ) & it's not subjective ( mono ) as opposite to objective ), in English Grammar it embodies verb.

July 17 at 9:18pm · Edited · Like

• 

Dalvir Gill I've already expained about Chen-ou Liu, though not a scholar but a good poet and runs a very successful blog, that he used this quote to show that how believers of "Haiku is the poetry of nouns" can not only twist things but can also assign things to Basho he never wrote with a clear-cut example, as Hiag Akmakjian has done.

David Barnhill is talking about the "Show, don't tell" thing, in essence, as it's evident from the quote shared by Mr. Sra. here's the full quote: ( I've the pdf book, a must read, by Barnhill anybody can get it from the net or me ):

"Basho's hokku have been called a "poetry of nouns"
because of its tendency to rely primarily on image rather than statement.
We can look back at the Sado Island, crow on a withered branch, and old pond poems as examples.
In each case we have the same pattern of noun, noun-verb, noun.
Much of the dynamism of these poems is in the stark imagism that turning them into a statement would only dilute."

here's the link to the book:
http://ptchanculto.binhoster.com/books/-Lit-%20Recommended%20Reading/Japanese%20Literature/Matsuo%20Basho/Matsuo%20Basho%20-%20Basho%27s%20Haiku,%20Selected%20Poems.pdf/

July 17 at 10:55pm · Edited · Like