Dalvir Gill 10
the faces of blossoms,
do they make you shy?
hazy moon
hana no kao ni / hareute shite ya / oborozuki
......................................................................
blossom ’s face / at timid do ! / hazy-moon
• Spring: hazy moon; blossoms. 1667.
..............................................................................................
Dalvir Gill .10
ਮੁੱਖ ਫੁੱਲਾਂ ਦੇ,
ਲੱਜਾਉਣ ਕੀ ਤੈਨੂੰ?
ਧੁੰਦਲਾ ਚੰਨ
Sarbjit Singh
ਮੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਖੇੜੇ
ਤੋਂ ਸੰਗ ਕਾਦੀ ?
ਧੁੰਦਲੇ ਚੰਨ
Dalvir Gill welcome Sarbjit Singh Veere, in every comment a "numbered" hokku, meant to be translated, is shared with some additional info and this format is carried through:
1. hokku, as translated by Barnhill from Japanese into English.
2. roman inscription, with a "literal" - word by word - translation.
3. Kigo along with the importance of it to the Japanese Culture.
4. Any commentary, if available.
...................................................................
while translating the respect for Japanese Aesthetic is observed. just like any translation, i advise you to read the hokku many times ... let the essence of it seep into you. hurried reaction is to be avoided at all costs.
Now, this hokku ( # 10 ) is cut after first two lines, meaning, it doesn't have a direct relation with L3. But you have tackled all three parts as one ( you usually do that - either writing a one-running-sentence or writing three independent lines.)
the faces of blossoms,
do they make you shy?
hazy moon
hana no kao ni / hareute shite ya / oborozuki
......................................................................
blossom ’s face / at timid do ! / hazy-moon
• Spring: hazy moon; blossoms. 1667.
..............................................................................................
Dalvir Gill .10
ਮੁੱਖ ਫੁੱਲਾਂ ਦੇ,
ਲੱਜਾਉਣ ਕੀ ਤੈਨੂੰ?
ਧੁੰਦਲਾ ਚੰਨ
Sarbjit Singh
ਮੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਖੇੜੇ
ਤੋਂ ਸੰਗ ਕਾਦੀ ?
ਧੁੰਦਲੇ ਚੰਨ
Dalvir Gill welcome Sarbjit Singh Veere, in every comment a "numbered" hokku, meant to be translated, is shared with some additional info and this format is carried through:
1. hokku, as translated by Barnhill from Japanese into English.
2. roman inscription, with a "literal" - word by word - translation.
3. Kigo along with the importance of it to the Japanese Culture.
4. Any commentary, if available.
...................................................................
while translating the respect for Japanese Aesthetic is observed. just like any translation, i advise you to read the hokku many times ... let the essence of it seep into you. hurried reaction is to be avoided at all costs.
Now, this hokku ( # 10 ) is cut after first two lines, meaning, it doesn't have a direct relation with L3. But you have tackled all three parts as one ( you usually do that - either writing a one-running-sentence or writing three independent lines.)
- Umesh Ghai and Sarbjit Singh like this.
Dalvir Gill Umesh & Sarbjit
turning it into one-running-sentence limits the possibility of multiple interpretations. now the hokku have become something addressed to the Moon ( conversations with nature/natural elements/phenomenon is more than ok ) whereas in original Basho had left it open for the reader to take the Moon as literal or metaphorical Moon.
Please note: The Western adoption of Hokku/Haiku which is bought by PH group and others is against the use of Metaphors ( Shirane discusses this at length in his essay that i've translated in Punjabi.) but like any good poetry Basho and others have not only used metaphors but have done so in almost all their poems.
while translating DO READ THE LITERAL/WORD-BY-WORD TRANSLATION and the little commentary whenever posted with the hokku.
( Just because you guys didn't show enthusiasm for that "extra material" i gave up on finding alternative translation and any available commentaries on that particular hokku. if you start considering the info attached to the hokku, i promise i'll find as much material on that hokku as much i could. )
with these things in mind ----- HAPPY TRANSLATING!!!
- Umesh Ghai Bhaa ji..... In my translation, I am asking the hazy moon in order to relate it to the question in second line. Nothing else. That is why I used dhundle channa instead of dhundla chann.
- Dalvir Gill but that's the problem i was addressing to in my previous comment, that it eliminates the "cut" ( cut is not just a grammatical tool but it creates the "dreaming-room", it's THE door for the reader to enter the poem ).
that's why i said that even though the conversation is more than ok but it eliminates all the chances for the reader to interpret "the Hazy Moon" as an ashamed lover or anything else. you getting my drift?
on a separate note: never ever agree with me just for the sake of it. opine yourself boldly otherwise you will be robbing me of any chances on learning.
when i interpreted this 'ku at hand, for me 'hazy moon' was there not only for induction of "kigo" but had a deeper meaning. flowers and moon, for Basho, were the very epitome of beauty. here he's obviously putting flowers over moon and he could not do so with the bright moon.
secondly, ( Basho was not a big fan of "cut-marks" but that of "cut" ) basho has penned so many hokku with "cut" at the end of his poem, but here "ya" is used at the end of the second part, an indication that he wanted the reader to take the "longer pause" here, hence creating Ma, disconnecting the "hazy moon" from the rest of the poem.
am i making any sense? - Dalvir Gill .
見るところ花にあらずと云ふことなし、
思ふところ月にあらずと云ふことなし。
Miru tokoro hana ni arazu to iu koto nashi,
omou tokoro tsuki ni arazu to iu koto nashi
There is nothing you can see that is not a flower;
There is nothing you can think that is not the moon. - Umesh Ghai But bhaa ji... I think first line fullan da mukh ya kali chehra provides proper cut.... but if not..... we can change last line to dhundla chann.... but won't it seem like three different lines .....
- Dalvir Gill between L1 & L2 there's a "shorter pause" and between L2 & L3 the Longer Pause". check the original. "ya" is the cutting-word Basho used.
in this post there are two translations; one by me and the other by Sarbjit, who took the same path as you. ( this entire post is a deleted comment from our "translation Photo", for i didn't want to discuss it there and preferred it here in private. )
Umesh, i don't follow the western take on haiku but it doesn't mean that i just follow my heart, i do respect a genre as a genre and feel the need to learn its distinctive features.
i feel that Japanese Aesthetics is closer to the Rasa-Theory of BhartaMuni than it is to the Poetics of Aristotle.
that's why i said that the Literal/word-by-word translation is the most helpful to enter a hokku we are translating. ( the pinned post is the dictionary i use to "know" any particular word.
in this poem there's a clear-cut use of the "cutting-word" ( ya ) and putting the 2nd part of the poem with the 3rd part instead of the 1st part ( intended by the poet ) here only weakens the poem doesn't enrich it.
all the possibilities for the "surplus of interpretations" are waned, or that's how i feel. ( to me, Basho is addressing to his beloved in first two lines and the "hazy moon" is an independent metaphorical image. in a subtle way he's comparing his beloved with the blooming flowers and the moon under the cover of haze ( thin clouds/thick autumn air ). consequently the flowers stands at the top of the victory stand and not so bright moon and/or his beloved a very close second.
i'm all for the "free/open translation" ( remember when i urged to translate the very first hokku with a reference to the NaanakShahi Calender ) as long as it strengthens the theme. but here i felt that it weakens the poem as it just turned out as if we are saying," Hey hazy moon! the faces of these blooms are more beautiful than your face." i took/take this poem as an 'ode to flowers' and moon/beloved/gem/something dear or precious/.... as only complimenting this beautiful object/being as in "chnN vi pi'aa shrmave" - Umesh Ghai Ok bhaa ji.... I have understood. ... let me redo it....
10
ਫ਼ੁੱਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਮੁਖ
ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਸੰਗ?
ਧੁੰਦਲਾ ਚੰਦ - Dalvir Gill i've planned to post a 'set of ten' each time on the blog. and within minutes i'll share the link here. Balram was supposed to lead us into each hokku and that could have made up "our" commentary but now it seems as we have to do this all by ourselves.
i'll post each 'ku here and we'll discuss it if needed and post the finished product on the "main photo". - Dalvir Gill here:
https://gilldalvir69.wordpress.com/.../%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8.../gilldalvir69.wordpress.comUmesh Ghai: *1.A ਬਹਾਰ ਆਈ? ਜਾਂ ਲੰਘਿਆ ਵਰ੍ਹਾ? ਕੱਲ੍ਹ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ 1.B ਤੁਸੀਂ ਪਧਾਰੇ ਜਾਂ ਮੇਰਾ... See More 
Sarbjit Singh Then
see the faces of blossom and other part is totally two different images ..day and night!!- Dalvir Gill i have typed a lot where the "cut" was intended and what kinda changes do occur if we change the position of the "cut". please read the comments made by Umesh and me on this thread.
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