It's a haiku site, though . . .
34 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
this has been "passed" by many blood-sworn haikuists. you gave your verdict and that's ok, now move on.
29 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
When did you become the moderator?
29 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
I haven't become anything, what i'm today i always was.
28 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
As a moderator, I'm suggesting that we offer actual haiku in English. That's all. I hope you will understand that there needs to be a representation of the genre.
27 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
there's Zoka in it and the tone is yugen.
25 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
Dalvir, please discuss haiku, not EL Hokku.24 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
Add that if you haven't already, add that to the Indian Sajiki, "Song of the Birds"
23 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
It would be good if you submitted it to perhaps Gabi's site. I'm not involved in formulating saijiki, but I do submit ideas that are specific to my region. Hey, give me a call if you are offended or otherwise. I didn't make the conditions for a haiku, but I am happy to discuss with you. I think there may be a doc on this site that states conditions, but I haven't checked recently (dealing with more than one site). Not trying to offend you or to argue here.
13 minutes ago · Edited · Like
Elaine Andre
Ah, please check the Inahata Teiko document in this site's files. That's where you'll find some conditions for haiku.
15 minutes ago · Edited · Like
Dalvir Gill
I'm left with no free long distancing neither.No offense taken. it's not a rarity to meet someone who believe that only his idea of a perfect haiku is the only one, and the only right one. all this junk on the name of criticism is all based upon what ELH ( with pro and anti both groups ) is, and what was given by the "Pioneers". All rubbish.no effort was ever made to understand a poet, his states of mind, and then try to figure out what state of mind is the birthplace of a haiku.if dogs aren't cats, then Art is not Craft either.
11 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
Dalvir, you hold some strong opinions. Please continue on the messenger. See ya there. . . .8 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
we can have this very discussion on the above link. this is just a link, not a translation of the punjabi haiku. they resonate. in the punjabi version, your kigo thingie is there too and the whole ninety yards.
5 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
We'll discuss on the messenger or close the thread.3 minutes ago · Edited · LikeDalvir Gill3 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
Why do you want to challenge the moderation of the Chai Leaves site?11:46pm
Dalvir Gill
What gives you this idea? i visit over thirty groups pages daily, and chai leaves is one of them.
11:50pm
Elaine Andre
You are inserting a recent teaching by a single person as the parameters for the Chai Leaes site. I don't think that is part of the way we set up Chai Leaves. Since you've moved to the new school you are convinced that you've located EL Hokku, but it is not haiku and not even the orginal hokku style either.
11:51pm
Elaine Andre
The people who are attempting to write in English are not getting a true picture of haiku if you are inserting this new version and then defending it to the teeth.
11:52pm
Dalvir Gill
It's just a post on a page on FB. i've posted this on 4-5 other places to. only you have come with all this. before you started, 2-3 have clicked like and one or two commented in response to my punjabi post
call it A or B, i write what i write nad everyone has the freedom to opine and that's it.
11:59pm
Elaine Andre
I know what the reasons were for starting the site and was made a moderator because of those same reasons. There is not a great deal of understanding among the Punjabi speakers concerning haiku. When they write in English they have further problems, depending on their fluency. We were determined when we began this site to teach a purer strain of haiku. We chose Inahata Teiko's guidelines for a specific reason. She embodies the teaching on the highest level in Japan.
Now, if you want to get into issues about what is allowed on some other site, that is a red herring.
You are very smart and fluent in English. You could be areal asset to others if you would stay within haiku guidelines. This business of removing kigo is utter nonsense. Perhaps you've read World Within Walls - Donald Keene? It is abundantly clear that what is now known as ''kigo" was already in play before Basho learned haikai.12:00am
Dalvir Gill
here's a good collection of thoughts on what Haiku is. Even if you hate the person the quotes don't belong to him
http://simplyhaiku.theartofhaiku.com/autumn2011/personification.htmindexengsimplyhaiku.theartofhaiku.com
12:01am
Elaine Andre
I've read his nonsense. Don't send me his links. As I said, we are not talking about the guidelines of other sites.12:02am
Dalvir Gill
Basho:
“Haikai has three elements: Sekibaku ( 1. loneliness; desolation2. lonely; lonesome; dreary; desolate; deserted3. harsh (words); cutting (criticism)4. to separate in thought; to consider as independent ) is its mood. While having fine dishes and beautiful women, one finds true joy in humble solitude. Furyu ( "elegance" or "artistic". ) is its quality. While dressed in brocaded silks and satins, one does not forget those who are wrapped in woven straw. Fukyo ( 1.Communal recitation of sūtras in Zen monasteries. 2. Rich & Piwerfull 3. announce, proclaim, inform 4. Economical, 5.>> Undecaying, indestructible, Incorruptible ) is its language. One's language should stem from loneliness and represent the substance of things. It is very difficult to stay with the substance of things while joining in emptiness. These three elements don't imply that a person who is 'low' aspires to the high, but rather that a person who has attained the high perceives through the low.”
12:02am
Elaine Andre
Source?
12:06am
Dalvir Gill
Bracketted are my words. the original quote comes from "Basho and the Dao"
12:07am
Elaine Andre
You've got a pretty superficial list there. None of the finesse of the actual conditions for the haikai poets of Basho's day.
I've read that book and many others. I suggest you read World Within Walls to balance your perspective. You're starting to sound like an echoe of RDW.
12:08am
Dalvir Gill
"Only i'm the deep one, they way i dig things," is a common thing as well.
there are no forbidden areas for me. i listen to everyone, go near anyone.
12:11am
Elaine Andre
Basho and the Dao along with Traces of Dreams seem to be the whole tamale in certain circles. You don't have to try to indoctrinate me with the jargon. We've both read it.
It's fine if you experiment. But, can you see that it is not necessarily haiku for people who don't even have access to books on the topic? Can you see that it thumbs it's nose at most of the great teachers of Japan and elsewhere?
12:12am
Dalvir Gill
I don't care for tao, buddha baso haiku poetry all I care for is me. call me selfish but I'm for me not for haiku, the reason i continue to live.
12:12am
Elaine Andre
Remember, we're still talking about HAIKU, not the newly coined genre of EL Hokku according to a guy in the Philippines?
12:13am
Dalvir Gill
again, I'm talking of ME
12:13am
Elaine Andre
I know.
I hope the universe of YOU can allow for others to run a site without this sort of badgered responses, when all that is asked is for a seasonal reference.
You're in Canada. I'll bet you five bucks that there are seasons there.
12:16am
Dalvir Gill
i don't feel the compulsion to convince people that what i think this universe, earth, nature, poetry, haiku is; shall be mounted on every one. i too, come from a culture where meanings of nature, change, mind-set are all mixed-up.
I'm not going to delete that post myself, it's a perfect haiku in punjabi and punjabi people will take care of. if you want to talk on a link provided with the post, your joy!
12:33am
Elaine Andre
I didn't delete the post, just some of the comments where it was not conducive to the morale of group. Hope you understand.
12:47am
Elaine Andre
If you belong to 30 sites, then it must be quite something to remember the guidelines set by their authors.
12:52am
Source?
12:06am
Dalvir Gill
Bracketted are my words. the original quote comes from "Basho and the Dao"
12:07am
Elaine Andre
You've got a pretty superficial list there. None of the finesse of the actual conditions for the haikai poets of Basho's day.
I've read that book and many others. I suggest you read World Within Walls to balance your perspective. You're starting to sound like an echoe of RDW.
12:08am
Dalvir Gill
"Only i'm the deep one, they way i dig things," is a common thing as well.
there are no forbidden areas for me. i listen to everyone, go near anyone.
12:11am
Elaine Andre
Basho and the Dao along with Traces of Dreams seem to be the whole tamale in certain circles. You don't have to try to indoctrinate me with the jargon. We've both read it.
It's fine if you experiment. But, can you see that it is not necessarily haiku for people who don't even have access to books on the topic? Can you see that it thumbs it's nose at most of the great teachers of Japan and elsewhere?
12:12am
Dalvir Gill
I don't care for tao, buddha baso haiku poetry all I care for is me. call me selfish but I'm for me not for haiku, the reason i continue to live.
12:12am
Elaine Andre
Remember, we're still talking about HAIKU, not the newly coined genre of EL Hokku according to a guy in the Philippines?
12:13am
Dalvir Gill
again, I'm talking of ME
12:13am
Elaine Andre
I know.
I hope the universe of YOU can allow for others to run a site without this sort of badgered responses, when all that is asked is for a seasonal reference.
You're in Canada. I'll bet you five bucks that there are seasons there.
12:16am
Dalvir Gill
i don't feel the compulsion to convince people that what i think this universe, earth, nature, poetry, haiku is; shall be mounted on every one. i too, come from a culture where meanings of nature, change, mind-set are all mixed-up.
I'm not going to delete that post myself, it's a perfect haiku in punjabi and punjabi people will take care of. if you want to talk on a link provided with the post, your joy!
12:33am
Elaine Andre
I didn't delete the post, just some of the comments where it was not conducive to the morale of group. Hope you understand.
12:47am
Elaine Andre
If you belong to 30 sites, then it must be quite something to remember the guidelines set by their authors.
12:52am
Dalvir Gill
who does? the way you live is based on your own rules, you can't expect others to be following the same one. how one studies, runs ones fb account or does whatever is particular to that person.
12:55am
Elaine Andre
If you post on a site it is by the guidelines of the site owner.
12:59am
Dalvir Gill
don't cofuse the sites, submissions, fb pages/groups. I share jokes, quotes, poetry ..... at different places. if you don't want me to stay, kick me out of the group. i can post only what i write not like submitting an assignment to the teacher. if i'll care for your views, i'll tell others; if i don't, i keep my calm.
12:59am
Elaine Andre
A better perspecitive would be to think of yourself as a guest unless it is your own site.
If you want to post on Chai Leaves, read the document I mentioned and post haiku with the usual conditions for the genre: s/l/s, kireji, and kigo.
1:01am
Dalvir Gill
then we shall publish only in our own site, why share? i'm not too much into designated titles. who is what. there's no need to talk it privately.
1:02am
Elaine Andre
What your are saying is that, unless you can do anything you want, you won't post. I guess you have made your decision on the matter.
1:02am
Dalvir Gill
i posted, talk on the post if you want to or just ignore the post, delete the post, there must be others on the admins list as well.
1:03am
Elaine Andre
You are making an issue in order to promote your new-found mentor's point of view. It is not haiku. It is EL Hokku.
1:06am
Dalvir Gill
as i said -it on the post, let it be. all the other post on that page all are perfect haiku and this is a non-haiku. suggest your version or once you ssaid it's not haiku, that was the, should have been, the end.
1:07am
Elaine Andre
You're the one who decided to make unpleasant remarks in that statement and afterwards.
1:09am
Dalvir Gill
Ain't I the always. i didn't even care to click like on gurmukh's comment,"good one, brother."
1:11am
Elaine Andre
Do you suppose the fellow knows whether it is a haiku or not?
1:14am
Dalvir Gill
why should i care. isn't that what i was saying that i don't care what others think what haiku is. i write what i think what haiku is. if some one writes or comments only after checking what elaine thinks what poetry is what a certain form of poetry is then it's that person's problem not mine.
1:15am
Elaine Andre
Maybe what you meant was that you had all the elements in Punjabi version, but it perhaps doesn't translate into English to include the kigo?
If you don't care about the conditions of haiku, why would you post on a haiku site?
1:17am
Dalvir Gill
again elaine, all i care about is a mind set not the form.
i don't feel any need to explain you why and how i act/behave on a socail site.
1:18am
Elaine Andre
Then I suppose you will continue to undermine the Chai Leaves site for your own purposes. You continue to say how you are averse to the form of haiku.
Therein lies the difficulty. You are essentially telling me to kiss your butt if I don't like your blatant disregard of haiku form.
1:24am
Dalvir Gill
in punjabi, i even try to write in 5/7/5, this one is. that again your own assumption what i want you to do, what that's probably how you have understood life, "What the other/others want?"
i told you that i don't care. what others think of me, my acts, my... ME.
i'm admin of over ten groups. some i have just visited to read one post,"so&so have promoted you as an admin.
life is important, none of it's one part is.
1:26am
Elaine Andre
Again. redundant thumbing your nose at the site on which Sandip and I have worked hard to offer a set of authentic guidelines for the genre. Why do you feel so much enjoyment in tearing it down?
1:31am
Dalvir Gill
i have no problem with you, sandip, FB group, or anything. why do you show alarm? i didn't get anything when the group was formed, not gonna get anything if because of this group they declare you "queen of haikuland' nor gonna get anything if it progresses or goes to nada.
but you can't understand when i say that "i don't take life seriously"
1:34am
Elaine Andre
I can understand it. I've lived with narcissists and people with all sorts of ego-centric problems. The thing is, those types never get it when others DO have cultural, ethical or genre guidelines. They feel pleasure in peeing in the soup.
1:35am
Dalvir Gill
just don't drink that soup
1:36am
Elaine Andre
The soup belongs to the haiku world. It is supposed to nourish us along that Narrow Road journey.
1:41am
Dalvir Gill
chai leaves is not the entire universe, for me. there could be many who wish to be the "martyrs of haiku", no such wish here. i don't even click like or comment on the posts in haikuomni. how can i say that i'm the only one saviour of "haiku soup"
people stuck on the 5/7/5 don't see kigo-people as peeing in the haiku soup, i'm not pro or anti of them either. everyone likes its own confinement.
1:44am
Elaine Andre
Who talked about 5-7-5?
1:46am
Dalvir Gill
i'm just telling you that. their are groups in punjabi circles too. sandip know. but that's what i'm saying that they can jump the say way, "who's talking about kkigo?"
1:46am
Elaine Andre
All you need to know is that you can set whatever guidelines you want for whatever you call the new hybrids. Chai Leaves has its guidelines, which you are need to respect if you want to post there. I can't read your Punjabi version, so I'll assume that it had the elements of haiku according to the guidelines I've mentioned, which you said it does. If the English version doesn't reflect that, then the issue is a revision of the English translation.
1:52am
Elaine AndrePeople who actually write "HAIKU" are talking about and using kigo
1:53am
Dalvir Gill
that's a link i posted there's no translation of it, most likely there couldn't be any, at least i can't translate it. so that's what i said in the beginning let punjabi people take care of it. the link accompanying could be a picture of anything, talk it over the link proper. fb gives us rights as admins and as members, we just can't break them. my job is to use those rights for me.
1:54am
Elaine Andre
You're saying that you'll do anything you want on Chai Leaves?
1:54am
Dalvir Gill
i just read your last message and let me repeat it, more clearly this time,"I don't care what Haiku or anti-haiku people say.
1:55am
Elaine Andre
Just don't post that sort of rhetoric on Chai Leaves.
1:56am
Dalvir Gill
just read your last message and all i have to say is "Do whatever you feel Like Doing." and "DON'T EVER DARE TO TELL ME - WHAT I CAN OR CAN'T DO."
1:57am
Elaine Andre
I'm telling you for the Chai Leaves site. Last notice.
2:02am
Dalvir Gill
you have all the rights as one of the 8-9 admins.
do whatever you feel like. if it's not personal then why did you discuss this in private? why didn't you want to discuss this with all the members of the group? i've, now, bigger problems to think about ... things like, what my life be like without a fb group or fb or this cyber-reality.
2:03am
Dalvir Gill
Johannes Manjrekar:
bulbul alarm –
the cat goes from stillness
to suddenness
2:04am
Elaine Andre
Because it is rude to carry out disputes over the site's guidelines and challenge the moderator. You were way out of line.
We're talking about your post, not someone else's.
Dalvir, you know better. You are being obstenent.
2:05am
Dalvir Gill
check all the other posts are they according to your guidelines? and i have said this earlier too, delete if you want to, just stop harassing me like this
2:06am
Elaine Andre
You are saying that you will not conform. It is not up to you to tell us about other's posts.
It is no longer a problem.
2:08am
Dalvir Gill
aren't you telling me what to post and what not to, and not on the group wall but here. and i pointed that more then once that not all the posts are exemplary haiku. frankly, this is all the time i can give you on this thing.
2:09am
Elaine Andre
Right. You are no longer a member of the site, so the issue is now closed.
2:09am
Dalvir Gill
was it that hard?
2:11am
Elaine Andre
Yes. I want to be able to reason with you and I've given it extensive time. Your stubborness dictates that you act as you do, which has no respect for the people who set the guidelines for the site. I was hoping beyond hope that you would not work against us in this.
1:53am
Dalvir Gill
that's a link i posted there's no translation of it, most likely there couldn't be any, at least i can't translate it. so that's what i said in the beginning let punjabi people take care of it. the link accompanying could be a picture of anything, talk it over the link proper. fb gives us rights as admins and as members, we just can't break them. my job is to use those rights for me.
1:54am
Elaine Andre
You're saying that you'll do anything you want on Chai Leaves?
1:54am
Dalvir Gill
i just read your last message and let me repeat it, more clearly this time,"I don't care what Haiku or anti-haiku people say.
1:55am
Elaine Andre
Just don't post that sort of rhetoric on Chai Leaves.
1:56am
Dalvir Gill
just read your last message and all i have to say is "Do whatever you feel Like Doing." and "DON'T EVER DARE TO TELL ME - WHAT I CAN OR CAN'T DO."
1:57am
Elaine Andre
I'm telling you for the Chai Leaves site. Last notice.
2:02am
Dalvir Gill
you have all the rights as one of the 8-9 admins.
do whatever you feel like. if it's not personal then why did you discuss this in private? why didn't you want to discuss this with all the members of the group? i've, now, bigger problems to think about ... things like, what my life be like without a fb group or fb or this cyber-reality.
2:03am
Dalvir Gill
Johannes Manjrekar:
bulbul alarm –
the cat goes from stillness
to suddenness
2:04am
Elaine Andre
Because it is rude to carry out disputes over the site's guidelines and challenge the moderator. You were way out of line.
We're talking about your post, not someone else's.
Dalvir, you know better. You are being obstenent.
2:05am
Dalvir Gill
check all the other posts are they according to your guidelines? and i have said this earlier too, delete if you want to, just stop harassing me like this
2:06am
Elaine Andre
You are saying that you will not conform. It is not up to you to tell us about other's posts.
It is no longer a problem.
2:08am
Dalvir Gill
aren't you telling me what to post and what not to, and not on the group wall but here. and i pointed that more then once that not all the posts are exemplary haiku. frankly, this is all the time i can give you on this thing.
2:09am
Elaine Andre
Right. You are no longer a member of the site, so the issue is now closed.
2:09am
Dalvir Gill
was it that hard?
2:11am
Elaine Andre
Yes. I want to be able to reason with you and I've given it extensive time. Your stubborness dictates that you act as you do, which has no respect for the people who set the guidelines for the site. I was hoping beyond hope that you would not work against us in this.
ਕਿਲਕਾਰੀਆਂ ਸੰਗ
ਬੋਹੜੀਂ ਪੀਂਘਾ
http://dalvirgill.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/dalvir-gill-song-of-the-birds/
song of the birds
dalvirgill.wordpress.com
in my village
the song of the birds . . .
distant notes
( art by Alexey Menschikow Begnij )
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · about an hour ago near Brampton
Seen by 5
Charan Gill, Gurmukh Bhandohal Raiawal and Susan Diridoni like this.
Gurmukh Bhandohal Raiawal
Good one vire
about an hour ago via mobile · Like
Elaine Andre
What season is it?
Dalvir Gill
elain you must be talking about the one in english, right? it's "early morning" season.
54 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
53 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
in country-life people have a different relation with nature. we have a relation which is only a difference in the wardrobe. when your living one with the nature then the "changes" are more vivid. to the point that every hour is different than any other hour. primitve cultures like mine have named each hour, a set of two hours, a set of three hours. Forget ZÔKA, even KIGO cant be understood properly by someone living in different surroundings. Birds sing only twice a day. morning when they are up, but sun isn't to bring the worms, or whatever their food is, out; and, when the sun is down but they aren't. both times their song has a peculiarly fixed moment to start, fixed not with the Watch but Time, how the night was and how the day was.
37 minutes ago · Like
Elaine Andre
It's all a matter of education and understanding the conditions of the genre. All the rest is free verse or something else.
36 minutes ago · Like
Dalvir Gill
let it be.
36 minutes ago ·