#gem#
An oldie, coz i only record genuine perceptions .
a pine tree
in the Buddha temple --
just stopped rain
An oldie, coz i only record genuine perceptions .
a pine tree
in the Buddha temple --
just stopped rain
- Akila Gopalakrishnan, Arvinder Kaur and 5 others like this.
Paresh Tiwari I like this... But I believe that all perceptions painted in words are genuine and that's true for all haijin, poets and authors
Dalvir Gill thanks Paresh for pointing this, otherwise in our fanaticism for "genuine" or first-hand experience we may need to discard most of the works by Buson, who is rightly called a "desk- haiku" writer by Haruo Shirane in his monumental "Beyond the Haiku Moment".- Paresh Tiwari you are bang on Dalvir...in any case who can really decide what is a first hand experience, isn't feeling something with intensity or digging a hidden memory, a direct experience! In any case even if I am with you at the scene of occurance your observation could be poles apart from mine...making perceptions just a moot point
- Dalvir Gill thanks Paresh, and yes Shirane goes a step farther:
The joy and pleasure of haikai was that it was imaginary literature, that the poets who participated in linked verse moved from one world to the next, across time, and across space. The basic idea of linked verse was to create a new and unexpected world out of the world of the previous verse. Once could compose about one's daily life, about being an official in China, about being a warrior in the medieval period, or an aristocrat in the ancient period. The other participants in the haikai sequence joined you in that imaginary world or took you to places that you could reach on with your imagination. - Dalvir Gill i read this essay over over and have translated it into Punjabi, along with Robert's "Haiku is Dead". he, too, wonders if Basho could have made this distinction between personal and non-personal. ( This "Indvidual vs society" concept is largely a western concept, as well. ) I always say that feudal Japan was more like feudal India and they both were different than the feudal Europe.
Japanese Aesthetics is closer to the Rasa Theory of BhartaMuni than it is to the Poetics of Aristotle. 
Kala Ramesh Japanese Aesthetics is closer to the Rasa Theory of BhartaMuni than it is to the Poetics of Aristotle --dalvir.
Very well said, Dalvir. I hold the same opinion.
When zen is nothing but Cha'an of the Chinese, which was nothing but "dhyaan" of the advaitic thought.
During the silk route there was a lot of interaction between China and India and our sutras and theories were taken to China.
And we all know, Japan took everything including the script from China. ..so Japanese is closer to Indian thought than to Western thinking.- Kala Ramesh I also totally agree with Paresh - we all write from our experiences- [especially haiku and tanka] - be it for a prompt or a desku or any other - a good haiku is one that comes from deeply experienced emotion.
I'm all for prompts and desku/ memory ku, though I'm not good at writing for prompts!! - Dalvir Gill thanks Kala, i have always listened to you keenly. when ever you explained things with your profound understanding of Indian Music/Dance/Arts it made sense to me. you are one of the few people who can excess Japan directly, not via western understanding and contribute to the Haiku. western mind believes to understand and explain things in totality through cranial faculty, but we, even when giving our 100%, never claim so - calling it Guru Kripa ( Grace of God ). Unknown is important to us so is the unsaid. if you go to this site srigranth.org and look for KudrAt (=Nature, type in Devnagri ) you will find 78 references and, without a miss, it's translated in English as "Your Creative Potency" , not as nature. So is Zoka, mistranslated as Nature and then western concept of Nature applied to it. The guy who translated it into English had never heard about Zooka or Haiku but that's our very own understanding of the concept.:
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani... - Dalvir Gill Dalvir Gill here's the copy paste from the first page:
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ਪੰਨਾ 3, ਸਤਰ 17
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
How can Your Creative Potency be described?
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 4, ਸਤਰ 2
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
How can Your Creative Potency be described?
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 4, ਸਤਰ 10
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
How can I describe Your Creative Power?
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 25, ਸਤਰ 10
ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੁਣੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਜਹਾਨ ॥
आपे वेखै सुणे आपे ही कुदरति करे जहानो ॥
He Himself beholds, and He Himself listens. By His Creative Power, He created the world.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 48, ਸਤਰ 8
ਸਚੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਧਾਰੀਅਨੁ ਸਚਿ ਸਿਰਜਿਓਨੁ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥
सची कुदरति धारीअनु सचि सिरजिओनु जहानु ॥
True is the Creative Power which He has created. True is the world which He has fashioned.
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 53, ਸਤਰ 14
ਆਪਣੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਣੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
आपणी कुदरति आपे जाणै आपे करणु करेइ ॥
He alone knows His Creative Power; He Himself does all deeds.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 71, ਸਤਰ 17
ਵੇਖਹਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
वेखहि कीता आपणा करि कुदरति पासा ढालि जीउ ॥२॥
You watch over Your Creation, and through Your All-powerful Creative Potency, You cast the dice. ||2||
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 83, ਸਤਰ 18
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥
कुदरति करि कै वसिआ सोइ ॥
He created the Creative Power of the Universe, within which He dwells.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 84, ਸਤਰ 1
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
कुदरति है कीमति नही पाइ ॥
The value of the Creative Power of the Universe cannot be known.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok - Dalvir Gill ( cont. ਪੰਨਾ 98, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
सभ किछु तूंहै तूंहै मेरे पिआरे तेरी कुदरति कउ बलि जाई जीउ ॥१॥
You are everything; You are my Beloved. I am a sacrifice to Your Creative Power. ||1||
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 107, ਸਤਰ 8
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥
कुदरति करमु न कहणा जाई ॥
His Creative Power and His Bounties cannot be described.
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 143, ਸਤਰ 13
ਆਪੇ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
आपे कुदरति साजि कै आपे करे बीचारु ॥
He Himself created and adorned the Universe, and He Himself contemplates it.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 151, ਸਤਰ 14
ਤਉ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
तउ कुदरति कीमति नही पाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Your All-pervading creative nature cannot be estimated. ||1||Pause||
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 313, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਣਾਈਆ ॥
सचु सचा कुदरति जाणीऐ दिनु राती जिनि बणाईआ ॥
The True Lord is truly known for His all-powerful creative nature; He fashioned the days and the nights.
ਮਃ 4 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 376, ਸਤਰ 5
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਰੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
कुदरति वरतै रूप अरु रंगा ॥१॥
His Creative Power is all-pervading, in form and color. ||1||
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 390, ਸਤਰ 19
ਅਪਨੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪਿ ॥੪॥੩੧॥੮੨॥
अपनी कुदरति जाणै आपि ॥४॥३१॥८२॥
He alone knows His All-powerful creative nature. ||4||31||82||
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 442, ਸਤਰ 1
ਤੂੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
तूं पारब्रहमु बेअंतु सुआमी तेरी कुदरति कहणु न जाई ॥
You are the Supreme Lord God, the Infinite Lord and Master. Your creative power cannot be described.
ਮਃ 3 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 463, ਸਤਰ 4
ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥
दुयी कुदरति साजीऐ करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥
Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 463, ਸਤਰ 9
ਸਚੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ॥
सची तेरी कुदरति सचे पातिसाह ॥
True is Your almighty creative power, True King.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 5
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਿਸੈ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਭਉ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति दिसै कुदरति सुणीऐ कुदरति भउ सुख सारु ॥
By His Power we see, by His Power we hear; by His Power we have fear, and the essence of happiness.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 5
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਆਕਾਸੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति पाताली आकासी कुदरति सरब आकारु ॥
By His Power the nether worlds exist, and the Akaashic ethers; by His Power the entire creation exists.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 6
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कुदरति वेद पुराण कतेबा कुदरति सरब वीचारु ॥
By His Power the Vedas and the Puraanas exist, and the Holy Scriptures of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. By His Power all deliberations exist.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 6
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਖਾਣਾ ਪੀਣਾ ਪੈਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਣੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
कुदरति खाणा पीणा पैन्हणु कुदरति सरब पिआरु ॥
By His Power we eat, drink and dress; by His Power all love exists. -
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 7
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਜਹਾਨ ॥
कुदरति जाती जिनसी रंगी कुदरति जीअ जहान ॥
By His Power come the species of all kinds and colors; by His Power the living beings of the world exist.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 7
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਨੇਕੀਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਬਦੀਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
कुदरति नेकीआ कुदरति बदीआ कुदरति मानु अभिमानु ॥
By His Power virtues exist, and by His Power vices exist. By His Power come honor and dishonor.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 8
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਖਾਕੁ ॥
कुदरति पउणु पाणी बैसंतरु कुदरति धरती खाकु ॥
By His Power wind, water and fire exist; by His Power earth and dust exist.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 464, ਸਤਰ 8
ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਾਦਿਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਾਕੀ ਨਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ॥
सभ तेरी कुदरति तूं कादिरु करता पाकी नाई पाकु ॥
Everything is in Your Power, Lord; You are the all-powerful Creator. Your Name is the Holiest of the Holy.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 469, ਸਤਰ 10
ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥
बलिहारी कुदरति वसिआ ॥
I am a sacrifice to Your almighty creative power which is pervading everywhere.
ਮਃ 1 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 508, ਸਤਰ 1
ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲਹ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਨ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥
जिउ बोलावहि तिउ बोलह सुआमी कुदरति कवन हमारी ॥
As You cause me to speak, so do I speak, O Lord Master. What other power do I have?
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
ਪੰਨਾ 519, ਸਤਰ 1
ਅਨਿਕ ਰੂਪ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਧਾਰਦਾ ॥
अनिक रूप खिन माहि कुदरति धारदा ॥
By His creative power, He assumes numerous forms in an instant.
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
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Results 1 - 30 of 73 - Dalvir Gill by now you know that it's from the Sikh Holy Scriptures, Shri Guru Granth Sahib.
isn't it amazing that even when it says कुदरति कवन हमारी Kudrt Kvn Hamaari, he translates as "What other power do I have?" ( not saying "it's not in my nature". Nature is considered a pure substitute for Kudrat. ( not even in the sense of Human Nature. ) it could mean 1Zoka, 2Everything (Universe), 3Power. and so on; never a thicket, outdoors, seashore or any other image, we have of as western description of nature.
so goes about the Kigo. it's totally different than the western perception. - Kala Ramesh Advaitic thought is all about "oneness" - so a pulsating leaf is the same as you and me or that distant mountain - so what is nature - if not you and the rest of this cosmos - the Mahavakya - Aham bhramasi or tat twam asi ??
So zoka is that creative force in nature - call it by any name. - Dalvir Gill if i'm allowed an analogy. Zoka is the God and kigo is all the gods. Zoka expresses itself through kigo, that's where the unseen/unfathomable creative-destructive power of zoka becomes visible, we can try to understand it. that's why i agree with the people when they say haiku has to have kigo in it, without it, for me it'll become like Buddhist Sutras, it'll transcend from being mystery to Metaphysical and can't be called haiku anymore.
- Dalvir Gill exactly Kala, saying Advait ( Not Two ) doesn't seems right, Oneness is better but then again Oneness really will mean Shunyata, wouldn't it? and yes i don't believe in any BrahmN outside either - a little, maybe infinitesimally small, negligible part is manifested through me but He's not an independent entity apart from me; all this visible invisible is One Whole, everything included.
- Kala Ramesh Dvaita - is two
Advaita - is one
Isn't it Dalvir?!?
ha,Anita, so much into kavya for Katha India project that I made this error! Thanks for pointing it out!! - Kala Ramesh In Sanskrit we do say ahimsa . . . dvaita theory was propounded first, then Adi Sankara came out with Advaita. i like it.
- Dalvir Gill yes ditto Kala ( Advait = a dvait = not two = one ). i was just pointing that calling One as not two is not right. but then calling it One is not right either - for, It is and It Isn't. Calling it Shunyata or MahaVakya has the same problem. Neti-Neti has the same problem. It's expounded in GuruBani at length, "You who have no name and all the name. You are everywhere and nowhere. ...... " and so on.
- Anitha Varma I am sure the Adi Shankara called it "not two" for good reason. I do not think we can judge such self realized beings with our 'duality infested' intellects.
- Dalvir Gill you have to call that "Whose name can't be called" with something." so Not-Two works fine for me. it doesn't matter to me who brought it Yin-Yang, Shiv-Shkti, ArdhNaari-Eeshvra, everything is fine by me. it's the existential feeling/experience that matters. Mind can understand through Duality only, so, calling It ( that Isn't ) Advaita is ok. no body is judging anyone. Judgement ( on others ) can come only if their are two. I have Great respect for all the Buddhas/Shankras/Adi Shankraacharyas of Present/past/ and future. Then again only Dual mind can think of time division there is only One Eternal Moment.
Tao/Hukum/KudrAt/Zoka can never be explained,
Once explained it's Tao no more.
There was nothing before Adi Shankrachariyaa, He was before everything, He was before the Time, before the Existence as AtmanA. A body is not Adi ShankraChaariyaa, if we look that way we will turn Him into a, no matter how gigantic, character of History. - Anitha Varma True. I think it is because it is well-nigh impossible for ordinary minds to grasp 'the One' in itself that these greats introduce something we understand into the word that describes 'it'.
Jayashree Maniyil doesn't this have a verb?? aah not the original. i want to revisit mine to see if there are any without a verb. never thought so carefully before, because I write what feels right. loving this new twist!- Dalvir Gill no Jayashree, haiku is activity=biased not object-biased, so what ever you are doing is right. In essence, philosophically, there are no nouns but slow-verbs. nothing is stationary, everything is in a continuous flux.
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