:
Can haiku be written in past tense and do examples exist?
This is a question that was put to me yesterday (in so many words), to which I answered - yes. There are many examples of this to be found in the past (ironic?).
For purposes of discussion I would like to quote a passage from one of the best existing essays (imo) on the subject matter of haiku by Shincho Professor of Japanese Literature at Columbia University, Haruo Shirane, titled: Beyond the Haiku Moment (Basho, Buson & Modern Haiku Myths).
"One of the widespread beliefs in North America is that haiku should be based upon one's own direct experience, that it must derive from one's own observations, particularly of nature. But it is important to remember that his is basically a modern view of haiku, the result, in part, of nineteenth century European realism, which had an impact on modern Japanese haiku and then was re-imported back to the West as something very Japanese. Basho, who wrote in the seventeenth century, would have not made such a distinction between direct personal experience and the imaginary, nor would he have placed higher value on fact over fiction."
Example #1 Saigio (by way of hokku)
in the shade of a willow tree
i paused for what i thought
would be just a moment
Example #2: Basho (referencing Saigo)
a whole field of
rice seedlings planted - I part
from the willow
There are countless more examples and it really would be interesting to compile a collection. In my opinion, the concepts offered by Shirine combined with the examples of masters past, clearly establish a precedence worth noting (and quoting) when wishing to explore all possibilities beyond the haiku moment which would allow a freedom to travel liberally between present, past, and future .. as did often, masters past. Yes, I do belong to the Bashonian school
Can haiku be written in past tense and do examples exist?
This is a question that was put to me yesterday (in so many words), to which I answered - yes. There are many examples of this to be found in the past (ironic?).
For purposes of discussion I would like to quote a passage from one of the best existing essays (imo) on the subject matter of haiku by Shincho Professor of Japanese Literature at Columbia University, Haruo Shirane, titled: Beyond the Haiku Moment (Basho, Buson & Modern Haiku Myths).
"One of the widespread beliefs in North America is that haiku should be based upon one's own direct experience, that it must derive from one's own observations, particularly of nature. But it is important to remember that his is basically a modern view of haiku, the result, in part, of nineteenth century European realism, which had an impact on modern Japanese haiku and then was re-imported back to the West as something very Japanese. Basho, who wrote in the seventeenth century, would have not made such a distinction between direct personal experience and the imaginary, nor would he have placed higher value on fact over fiction."
Example #1 Saigio (by way of hokku)
in the shade of a willow tree
i paused for what i thought
would be just a moment
Example #2: Basho (referencing Saigo)
a whole field of
rice seedlings planted - I part
from the willow
There are countless more examples and it really would be interesting to compile a collection. In my opinion, the concepts offered by Shirine combined with the examples of masters past, clearly establish a precedence worth noting (and quoting) when wishing to explore all possibilities beyond the haiku moment which would allow a freedom to travel liberally between present, past, and future .. as did often, masters past. Yes, I do belong to the Bashonian school
- You, Sarbjit Singh, Rosie Mann, Mandeep Maan and 6 others like this.
Kame San I cannot go deep in theory but shortly: there is no limits in haiku! it can be written in past and future tens too and many examples exist!
Ed Bremson Interesting question, Maxene I am just a humble poet, so I don't think too much about theory, but I definitely will give this more thought. Why leave out the past, right?
Maxene A. Alexander Yes exactly Ed - why leave out the past indeed. Just a humble poet/student myself, always on the lookout for teachers (of which I count you as one). Basho had said "if you want to know the pine, go to the pine" Max say, if you want to know Japanese poetry ... go to the Japanese :-))
Dalvir Gill when a student is ready teacher appears... this division of time into past, future is foreign to haiku-mind, it understands that NOW IS ONE ETERNITY.
Kala Ramesh When Susumu Takiguchi was in Pune, I asked him this question. He said YES! There are plenty of haiku in past tense.- Dalvir Gill Maxene, even in teacher 'n student the relation is not only dialectical, but non-dualistic........teacher and student disappear, only the teaching is in the is or isingness :))
Maya Lyubenova one of mine:
equinox:
the words we said
and the words we didn't
равноденствие:
думите които казахме
и които не
Norman Darlington Thanks for linking Shirane's excellent essay, Maxene. I'm happy to count myself as belonging to the Bashonian school too
John Potts @Maxene: Actually, this was a statement that you made to me and I asked you to show one or more examples from the classic period. Still waiting... https://www.facebook.com/groups/155337797923222/permalink/156004387856563/
SYNOPSIS
"The presented eureka instant is the springboard. Past (or future) is *alluded* to out of the vivid realisation triggered by a real, here and now event. This is how it works in haiku's ethos of immediacy of experience in the impersonal moment." - jp- Dalvir Gill Maxene, how does the one-handed clap sounds like, please share, personally; it's considered rude if you laugh out loud - showing your teeth, in my culture, ( for my beblocking friend manu kant : not indian/punjabi culture, ) my culture. ( let me cover y teeth 0
- Dalvir Gill nothing serious, seriously Ed! Just enjoying some seriously expensive scotch see you guys tomorrow. just want to leave me with the affirmation,"little things amuse little people"
- Maxene A. Alexander John ... Following is the (quoted) question you asked of me - I believe it has been answered. If not to your satisfaction, please rephrase ....... "John Potts: The present moment seems to be the springboard norm in classical haiku. Have you any examples of this not being the case, Maxene?"
- Dalvir Gill Max, nobody is going to ask the 'Atheists' where they did the picture from, if one does it's a round circle. We cling to our thought as if they have permanence, if one tries to think how often one's thoughts have changed ( penduluating between both extrremes ) since one's childhood, one can see nothing is there on the "Haiku Wall Of Fame.. It's just littlesest of the things that does amuse little people... feel honoured when a swollen head fears you . their game, they make the rules and they lose, who sais god doesn't got no sensa'humur ?? LIVE
- Maxene A. Alexander Delvir, thread crossover? I can tolerate the well educated house broken atheist, for those will well tolerate the rest of us. The far left of left who preach hate ... I could almost pity were it not for the harm they do - not only to others, but themselves as well. Why do I hear Lennon singing Imagine?
- John Potts @Maxine: The examples you give do not reference the past as a springboard in haiku. Both these examples spring from a present:
Example #1 Saigio (by way of hokku)
in the shade of a willow tree
i paused for what i thought
would be just a moment
Example #2: Basho (referencing Saigo)
a whole field of
rice seedlings planted - I part
from the willow
Here's how Basho typically worked to allude past and future events from concrete eureka moments of his direct experience:
summer grass
hides all that remains
of warriors' dreams
sick on my journey,
only my dreams will wander
these desolate moors
- Basho
We also have the problem of westernised translation errors to ponder. However, that is another discussion. By the way, for general knowledge regarding Nippon time-awareness, research the key aesthetic term "mono no aware". This is said to be the heart of the Japanese cultural soul (and a useful mode of consciousness for prosaic western mind sets to access, I would say). The classic movie Tokyo Story illustrates this poignant aesthetic concept superbly http://tinyurl.com/Yasujiro-Ozu
sites.google.com - Maya Lyubenova everything is everything - past is present is future
the subject was if a poet could use past tense in a haiku
the answer is yes - John Potts No, the question was of leaping from present moments into ponds of historic time as being the ethos of real haiku, Maya. Actually. ◠‿◠
- Maya Lyubenova of course, how could a frog leap into the old pond if it didn't exist in the present?
- John Potts (I do believe you are getting there, Maya. Springing from eternal present into futures forever passing. Frames in an endless movie -- see my comments above).
- Maya Lyubenova imho, the present "springboard" in haiku, as in any other kind of literature, is a thing so natural that one cannot simply avoid it
even history is written from the present POV 
Elaine Andre Example #2 uses the past as a preface for the main thought, "I part," which is in the present.- Maya Lyubenova a whole field of
rice seedlings planted - I part
from the willow
from grammatical point of view, this isn't Past Tense: "planted" here functions as a past participle used with a passive construction
I wonder what tense the Japanese original is - Maya Lyubenova the planted field is something that existed in Basho's present - so we cannot say that the springboard in this particular example is in the past
- Elaine Andre Maya Lyubenova, spot on. Japanese seems to be mistranlated pretty often. One has to wonder what the author might have intended.
- Elaine Andre Right! But even if the original meant 'having completed the work', it still speaks in the present.
- Maxene A. Alexander Yes Elaine, you are right - much is lost in translation. That is why I always seek out Japanese translators (those born into and who have lived the language). The above translations in the essay offered are by one such translator.l
Maya - Basho was writing to the work of Saigo before him - that makes it past tense.
Reference to the past is used liberally in Japanese poetry, and always has been, in fact it is one of the most important components historically, in Japan.
Past tense in the English language is signaled by the ending "ed" full stop .. it indicates an action in the past.
While Western haiku often "springboards" from the present - it is not a requirement of the genre, and if one takes the time to research this for themselves by studying the history and the poets of Japan ... then many examples of that will come to light. Else, there is only debate and argument ... and little poetry. - John Potts It's a question of depth of immersion in any haiku. Superficial readings are shallows over depths. Often reflections beguile the experience.
Example #1 Saigio (by way of hokku)
in the shade of a willow tree
i paused for what i thought
would be just a moment
The scribe was in the instant which then became the past and yet that instant is noted even though it is gone. This is the scribes observation. We are invited to contemplate this ambiguity and be brave. ('Mono no aware' is central to Nippon thought and it is a culturally conditioned experience which springs from an earlier way of understanding the world, before scientific realism came to rule the borders of human experience.)
Example #2: Basho (referencing Saigo)
a whole field of
rice seedlings planted - I part
from the willow
Basho is at the willow, in the present moment of his experience. He has been entranced and we find him virtualised at the instant of severance.
Look carefully... You will enter a world of wonder in both of these present moment examples. The acute awareness and poignant beauty of the irrevocable passing of things (mono no aware). Springboard from their signified moment, the exalted pathos of that which Japanese culture has made its own and freely shares with the world. But, the world needs to be humble and learn. - Maxene A. Alexander :
"@Maxine: The examples you give do not reference the past as a springboard in haiku. Both these examples spring from a present:"
John - I would say that the examples illustrate both present and past - as to springboard .. that would be a subjective observation left to the reader. If 75 out of 100 readers take it one way and the minority the other, does the majority mandate the truth? I would say it does not anymore than at one time the majority of the world thought itself flat.
Thinking more of your question I would like to answer it a different way. The springboard is the hands of the poet through an artist's best tools which are observation, contemplation, and expression. Even the earliest of works found in the Man'yōshū illustrate that Japanese poetry, in all forms, freely travel between past, present, and future - as well as reality and fantasy. And while Western misinterpretation has left one hemisphere largely in the dark of the moment - shifting gaze and following the light of the East will bring much more to the art than we have been first taught by translators not necessarily well versed in the language or the art.
Good morning bty (and my name is spelt with an e ... some miss this I cannot spend the entire day exploring all the ins and outs of this topic. But I would encourage all to research this topic on their own, and make their own decisions. And I would suggest that sources be chosen carefully - chiefly from those who come from Japan. Let us not debate too long - let us write, and write liberally as we have been shown we can. - Maxene A. Alexander For those who would like the full text of the above referenced essay - long read, well worth more than once ...
http://www.haikupoet.com/def.../beyond_the_haiku_moment.html - John Potts Hate to nitpick, Maxene, but Man'yōshū does not feature haiku. That evolved much much later in Nippon's poetry game. Yes! A poll. But, what would it prove? In the land of the blind a one-eyed player is Johnny Depp? ◠‿◠
- Maxene A. Alexander It contains not only haiku but also the sources of haiku John, which is obvious to anyone who reads and studies it - what translator are you reading? .. you should know this. And it is true - there are none so blind as those who cannot (or who refuse) to see ...
http://www.temcauley.staff.shef.ac.uk/poems.shtml
www.temcauley.staff.shef.ac.ukPoems Menu 1 Covering Waka Nos 0001-0444. Kojiki, Manyoshu and Kokinwakashu. - John Potts "Man'yōshū (万葉集 man'yōshū?, "Collection of Ten Thousand Leaves") is the oldest existing collection of Japanese poetry, compiled some time after 759 AD during the Nara period (710 to 794)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27y%C5%8Dsh%C5%AB
Where are the haiku almost 1000 years(!) before Basho? Of course haiku has precedent in earlier writings via renga and tanka (the older forms of tanka being referred to as 'uta' or 'waka' the latter also referring Japanese poetry in general) out of both Japan and China (where Nippon culture was originally rooted), in fact I'm preparing an item on this very subject and mentioned the long lineage of a few hours ago http://www.facebook.com/groups/155337797923222/permalink/156300071160328/
So, show us all some haiku from this ancient period, over 1000 years before Basho...
en.wikipedia.orgMan'yōshū (万葉集, man'yōshū?, "Collection of Ten Thousand Leaves") is the oldest existing collection of Japanese poetry, compiled some time after 759 AD during the Nara period. The anthology is one of the most revered of Japan's poetic compilations. The compiler, or the last in a series of compilers, ... - John Potts (By the way, my notes (on this thread) about present tense as a springboard into haiku is about the haiku as presented. Yes, there are reasons for this immediacy of entry point and these reasons are crucial for the formulation of a real haiku and the development of the haiku scribe; both as a perceiver and transmitter of experience, but also as an all around evolutionary person. The absence of ego is the key to many things when considering haiku matters.)
- Maxene A. Alexander ... yes, well - that is one definition - there are many. Quite often, as many as there are poets to write ....
- Maya Lyubenova they planted a field of rice - past simple - active
fields of rice are planted - present simple - passive
a field of rice is being planted - present continuous - passive
a filed of rice was planted - past simple - passive
a field of rice will be planted - future simple - passive
....
as you can see -ed doesn't always mean past - Maxene A. Alexander where do you see the word "are" ... this was written specifically to refer to a verse written prior, by another poet - past
- Maya Lyubenova it's not a full sentence as you can see Maxine
who says Basho didn't see a planted rice field which triggered the whole - John Potts @Maxene: Haiku (as standalone hokku) emerged in the Floating World (Ukiyo) of Nippon's post-Medieval renaissance, primarily in and under the influence of fashionable Edo (now Tokyo). The Tokugawa period of Nippon's entry into modernity. NOT 1000 YEARS EARLIER THAN BASHO. This is not rocket science!
◠‿◠ - Maxene A. Alexander Again, Basho was writing to the past poet. That makes the verse (in the context which it was written) past, as does the "ed" at the end of the word (that's a hint). Taken out of context - well, I can't even image doing that with Basho's work. And my name is spelt with an e - some miss these things :-))
- Maya Lyubenova a couple of years ago i wrote "a reply" to Basho's old pond haiku and Susumu San chose to classify it and gave it an honorable mention
dusty road
a green toad flattened
into silence
is flattened past tense? - Maya Lyubenova haha :)))))))))
flattened is a modifier here and it has nothing to do with the verb tense, the haiku speaks about a present moment when i saw the creature in the dust and told myself: "well, this thing over here will never ever leap into the sound of water" - Maxene A. Alexander Oh my John .. I could spend several hours doing that for you (and completely eat up my day), but I'm certain that you would not necessarily appreciate my efforts (I could be wrong, it does happen sometimes) ... I think the better suggestion is, that you do the research yourself and grace us with your opinion of ....
- Maxene A. Alexander Depends on the reader in this case, doesn't it? Unless there is some historical context that I'm missing ....
Ranjit Singh Sra I think in this flattened is not past tense,, some times verb's second form works as adjective.- John Potts Haha. Bugging out (again), Maxene. No rush, you say there are haiku in the sediments prior to Edo. Let's see some. To be honest, this professor character (Thomas McAuley) is confusing the waters with his use of language:
"Today, the type of waka best known outside of Japan is probably the haiku..." By "waka" he means "Japanese poetry" ("wa meaning 'Japanese' and ka meaning 'poem' or 'song'"). Of course, as we all know, waka also refers to early tanka (Shiki coined that term for his reformation at the turn of the last century). - Maxene A. Alexander Really John? The man you are speaking of is world renowned ... are you? Now, as for as bugging out - I've spent years researching .. you are refusing to do some of your own - who is bugging out .. not me. And I really don't have all day to play.
McAuley well understands what he is saying - if you don't understand him .. perhaps you don't fully understand the definitions of the words he is using and should read further, and even query him via email - he is very open to friendly students void of over inflated egos .... - Maxene A. Alexander btw ... for the record - what you say I said, I did not specifically say - please do not misquote me in the future.
- John Potts What did you say? Correct any error if such there be. Your faith in pundits is touching. Prove your point by showing us some examples of archaic haiku. As I keep saying, no rush, take your time...
- John Potts (This is where it gets interesting, regarding the proto-precedents to real haiku. But, that is yet to be written by myself and so 'mum's the word'. The reason for this veil of secrecy is that my insights and ideas are continually ripped off by scurrilo...See More
- Maxene A. Alexander Our conversations are over for the day John - perhaps over for eternity - you have a mean vibe about you ... and that is not where I wish to write from. Seek what you want - and you will find it. It is not my responsibility to educate you.
- John Potts Nor prove your point, it seems, Maxene. It was your call, not mine. A poor loser in debate. Come on, cheer up! How much better it is to learn rather than remain in confusion. You have evidenced nothing and cited a spurious authority over and over without providing any substance whatsoever. Furthermore, as is the way of some folks, when they are proven in error, they get cross. Anyway, we all wait for these ancient haiku to be unearthed that you insist exist by misunderstood proxy and yet cannot exhibit. To be fair, if I come across any haiku penned 1000 YEARS before Basho, then I will show the world and be amazed. ◠‿◠
- Maxene A. Alexander I guess there is some part of "our conversations are over for the day" that you do not understand. Or else you just like insulting people and having the last word. Do your own research - reference it - and maybe we will talk again. But not today - what is it about you that makes you need to belittle a fellow poet through bombastic rhetoric? Never mind - I really don't care to know. We are done for the day - feel free to continue discussing the topic with yourself ....
- Norman Darlington Anyone who refers to Thomas McCauley as a "spurious authority" says rather a lot about their own ignorance. And anyone who thinks standalone haiku/hokku began with Basho really needs to get out a bit more. And read Carter's 'Haiku before Haiku' (2011), Mack Horton's 'The Journal of Socho' (2002) to name but two of many.
No comments:
Post a Comment